Interview with
Governor John C. West
by West Forum Director, Dr. Blease Graham
July 11, 2003
Hilton Head, South Carolina
Part Two
GRAHAM: In terms of the changes in South Carolina, how did that affect your career in the State Senate? Did you see things changing dramatically or was this more of a little bit at the time kind of ….
WEST: I guess sort of a combination. I got along with the 
establishment, Edgar Brown, because I had worked with him. So then I became the young liberal because I did not oppose integration as strongly as most. I gave it some lip service. But when the chips were down, I was the liberal there … It could very well have cost me my career several times, as it did others. So I was fortunate in that regard. I think the major change in my time was the emergence of the Blacks as a political force and the integration of the schools which was a part of it. The integration of the schools was the major concern that the Legislature had to recognize and adopt. And fortunately we were able to retain public education.
GRAHAM: I guess some of those big changes would be things like the Voting Rights Act, changes in registration
WEST: The Voting Rights Act of 1965 and the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
GRAHAM: Along with that came a lot of new federal money, didn’t it? Or was that more of a gradual thing? Wasn’t there some federal money to help the State in a variety of ways? I know there were things like the Interstate Highway program. But that would be very different from, say, funds from employment or…
WEST: I may have told you this story in a previous episode. Thurmond was a key factor in Nixon’s election. So when I became governor, even though Strom had campaigned very actively against me… That was one great thing about him. He didn’t carry grudges. And I didn’t either. So we started working together for South Carolina. What happened was that he recognized that the Blacks needed some help and that he needed their help.
In fact, I think I told Bob that change on the road to Damascus came on election night, that you knew about. So what we found beginning in 1971, Phil Grose or Bob McNair had put together what he called the Planning and Grants Section, that wrote proposals to the federal government. Every department of the federal government has a discretionary fund for pilot demonstration projects. We actually hired a specialist in Washington to pursue that.
I may have told you this story but I always enjoy it. The assistant secretary of labor -- we tapped him. We had grants for Head Start which helped the kindergarten program. Grants for school lunches. And of course the famous grant that built the golf course at Orangeburg. Strom, Marion Gressette, and I hit the first balls. But this assistant secretary of labor, I got to know very well. One day I had a grant there. He said, ‘Do you realize you’ve got more from my discretionary fund than any other governor, including the governor of New York?’ I said, “Yes. Do you realize that my name has not appeared and that Strom Thurmond has gotten credit for every one of them.” He agreed.
So we did get a huge amount of federal grant money. Thanks to Strom, we would get the program ready, put it through the bureaucracy, and then call Strom to say, “Would you mind calling Secretary So-and-So with this project?” And we would outline it to him. He’d call over there and he’d announce it the next week. [Back to Topics]
Senator Thurmond's Legendary Constituent Service
GRAHAM: That’s the sort of thing that gave Senator Thurmond a lot of votes among South Carolina Blacks. If I have figured it right, during the 1996 election, he was topping 20 percent of the Black vote in South Carolina, which is unheard of for a Republican candidate to do that well. I guess as individuals found themselves being employed or seeing their children benefit from some of this …
WEST: One great thing about Thurmond. He would help a constituent, whether Black or White, whether he had voted for him or not. He would show no discrimination or favoritism there. And I’ve always respected him for that.
GRAHAM: He had a very good staff too.
WEST: Oh, yes, he had a great staff. I think their rule was that an incoming letter had to be answered that day or by telephone call the next day, or something like that.
GRAHAM: That always surprised people when the bureaucratic response was that quick.
WEST: He would not hesitate to put his weight behind a constituent’s cause. In fact, one comment I heard was ‘thank goodness Keating wasn’t one of his constituents. Otherwise Thurmond would have made it the Keating Six instead of Keating Five. [Back to Topics]
Effect on South Carolina of Loss of Two Senior Senators
GRAHAM: One question students ask me a lot is whether Thurmond not being in the Senate if seniority is as important today as it was. Do you have any thoughts about that?
WEST: There’s no doubt that, particularly if Hollings does not run, that we will be in an awkward position. We had probably the best position with two very senior senators, one a Democrat and one a Republican. I follow, of course, more closely what Hollings does. Grants for this; grants for that. Hollings was never the retail politician in the sense of helping a fellow with social security and all that. He would help. But his priority was getting an airport grant or something for the medical university, or something like that.
GRAHAM: I guess, unless Hollings does run we’ll have two first-term senators all of a sudden, and I guess we’ll move on to people like Congressman Spratt or Congressman Clyburn. But that’s still on the House. They would become almost the senior members.
WEST: Fortunately they are both real leaders in the House. And if the House changes they will be really important factors. As it is now, Fritz tells me this, and Jim too, the Republicans are just playing it real mean. Unless it’s something that will help the Republican Party you can forget it. [Back to Topics]
Rise of Mean-Spirited Partisanship
GRAHAM: That’s sort of a new thing in politics, isn’t it. A sort of mean-spirited partisanship. I get the idea that what you were describing a few moments ago that people would slug it out over an election or a debate. But at the end people still respected and were friends with each other and weren’t doing nasty undercover things to question integrity.
WEST: I’ve just about finished a book called “Bush’s Brain: The Story of Karl Rove.” He ought to be in jail. He and Lee Atwater started the dirty tricks. They started the formal program of the Republican Party. And time after time he was able to start a rumor that changed a lot of elections.
GRAHAM: Atwater, early in his career, during that campaign in the Greenville congressional district with Mayor Heller, where he really tried to destroy him. Clever use of a political survey as a means of getting out very negative things. Raising negatives became an achievement rather than telling the virtues of a candidate. Do you think we will continue to campaign like that into the future. Will young students at the University see this throughout their political careers?
WEST: I know this. Many people are retiring from politics now simply
because of partisanship. Fritz has expounded at great length on it. When he first went to the Congress he had warm relationships -- go out to dinner with colleagues. But now that has all but disappeared.
GRAHAM: That really is a loss of community in a sense.
WEST: Loss of communication.
GRAHAM: Ultimately it has to create problems in getting things done and in making the compromises ultimately that are necessary to be successful as a legislator.
WEST: Yes, but I don’t see any change in it. When the Republicans went after Clinton and impeached him for lying about sex. My own theory is that any man would lie about it if he thought he could get away with it. And if he didn’t lie, he isn’t much of a man. But then, of course, now they talk about – a program this morning – talking about President Bush’s lies that got us into a war, maybe. And yet nobody is condemning him as they condemned Clinton for lying about sex. And they don’t condemn Bush for lying about weapons of mass destruction.
GRAHAM: It’s almost a double standard. We’ve talked a good while here and I don’t want to overdo this. But did you have to buy television time when you ran in 1970?
WEST: Oh yes.
GRAHAM: So this kind of campaigning was already under way when you ran for governor. [Back to Topics]
Introduction of Television Into South Carolina Politics
WEST: You ask about television. Actually the 1970 campaign was the first one where it became a big factor. That was recognized. People had begun to get television sets. So we had a rather extensive television series.
One of them that was interesting… We got a tape of Strom Thurmond’s support for Goldwater in 1964. He made certain promises if Goldwater were elected. So we designed this ad called “Broken promises.” Just Thurmond’s voice. His broken promises.
He went berserk. He got the head of the Federal Communications Commission to call the TV owners in Spartanburg and Columbia and say ‘don’t run it.’ And of course they couldn’t say they wouldn’t. They did run it. I’ve forgotten the fellow’s name. Crawford Cook could tell you. But the head of the Federal Communications Commission said ‘you can’t run that ad.’
So it just sent him into a frenzy. But the Republicans, of course, used television very effectively. They were able to raise a lot more money than I could. They had Nixon and Agnew, particularly Agnew. Agnew was at the height of his oratorical power. He always would have a big crowd at those $100 and $50 events.
Well, it was right at the end of the campaign. The television people were smart. They would say that under the fairness doctrine we must tell you that your opponent already has committed another $50,000 or what have you. So right at the end of the campaign Agnew was scheduled to come to Greenville for a fundraiser. A $50 a plate barbeque. [Back to Topics]
The Fifty-Cent Kingstree Barbeque
The Republican crowd called to say they had another $50,000 commitment. Of course we just couldn’t meet that. So we had to decide what we could do. It turned out that it was one of the more interesting things. We decided we would have a fifty cent a plate barbeque down in Kingstree. One of our friends who was in the meat business gave us the meat. So we have a fifty cent a plate barbeque. Of course, we had a huge crowd there.
I don’t think I’ve ever enjoyed any speech as much as I did that night. Everybody had had barbeque and a little bit to drink. We knew about the Agnew thing at noon that day. I gave this stuff about we fought and died for the right to vote as an individual right. It’s your personal right. And if anybody tries to tell you how to vote it’s really putting you down, as if you hadn’t got sense enough to make up your own mind. I said that even the distinguished Vice President of the United States is showing contempt for you when he comes in to tell you how to vote. I said, ‘Let me prove to you the contempt the Republican Party and the Vice President have for you. Today they are having a $50 a plate barbeque. You know what, South Carolina barbeque wasn’t good enough for them. They brought the barbeque from Georgia.”
Graham: That’s a great story. [Back to Topics]
To go on, you know, Agnew and I developed a relationship after that when I was elected governor. He became the liaison with the governors. He came down and played golf. Then when – let’s see, he resigned in 1974, and took a job as an arms salesman or military salesman to the Mid-East.
So one day I was sitting in the office in Saudi, and Eddie Barbman who was there
said “The receptionist says the fellow on the line says his name is Ted Agnew and wants to know if you are available.” I said, ‘Oh, hell yes.’ He said he was in town and I said “Fine. I’d love to see you. Are you available for dinner tonight?” He said, “Do you really want me?” I said, “Of course I do. I’ll send a car for you.”
So I sent a car for him and I relived some of those experiences, including the barbeque. At the end it was right touching when he got ready to leave he said, “You know, this is the first embassy I’ve been invited into since I resigned. The last time I was here there was a nice young man who was my tennis partner. When I went back I got him appointed ambassador to Kuwait. I haven’t heard from him.’
But he also told me another interesting story. In fact, Don Fowler was over one time and we had a dinner with Don and Agnew. Somebody mentioned – well, I don’t know how it came up, but he said, ‘You know, the day I resigned I was lower than a snake’s belly. Right after my plea I had a call saying that my passport had been suspended because there was a lien of $400,000 from the IRS. And until that was paid I couldn’t get my passport back. Of course I had nothing. But the next morning, I had a call from Frank Sinatra’s attorney saying he understood I had a problem with my passport. Well, that’s solved. Your fine has been paid.’ He said, “My god, can I go down and sign a note?’ He said, ‘No. when you get the money you can pay us. Otherwise forget it.’ Agnew said, “This week I paid that off. But if anybody says anything about Frank Sinatra I’ll fight ‘em.”
GRAHAM: That really is touching that somebody would come forward at that level.
WEST: He said that he put up, I think it was $400,000 or $500,000. But I used to see him regularly. He came over there and we always had interesting meetings. He sent me a copy of his book and said that book is going to do a lot. I don’t think there was anything startling in it. I’ve got an autographed copy of his book. [Back to Topics]
Senior Political Figures Face Legal Problems
GRAHAM: In peak circles like the ones in which he was running, you really could run afoul of the law. I guess you’d have to know, but in some ways …
WEST: Unfortunately it was sort of a tradition in Maryland. I remember it very well this part of the story because right after the 1970 election, President Nixon appointed a task force of which John Mitchell was chairman. Its job was to go after Democratic leaders. A bunch of us who’d been on Time Magazine’s cover. That Taskforce started after every one of us.
Thank goodness they started after me on income tax and my returns had been done by Crawford Clarkson and Bill Grooms who were notorious Republicans. So they didn’t touch me. They got Carter, you know, and kept him in a … They got the Governor of Missouri, and finally put him in jail.
But during every governor’s conference we would have a session on what is the Mitchell Task Force doing to you. Without exception there was an issue of income tax or something. Marvin Mandel was then the Governor of Maryland. He said, “They put 35 men on him. I knew the head of the Task Force. I called him in and told him he had a job to do and you do it. But if he cross the line I’ve got so many law enforcement people. And if you so much as spit on the sidewalk you’ll go to jail.” Then he added this, I’ll always remember. “But I gave them enough information for them to run that rabbit forever and forget about me.” So I'm convinced he fed them the information on Agnew. Mandel subsequently was convicted of vetoing a racetrack bill … and started serving time. But it was reversed and I was glad. He was a shrewd little fellow.
GRAHAM; Incredible pressure on a public servant to raise all of this money for a campaigns, and to keep one’s personal life together, and at the same time to be completely available to the people of the State. It seems almost like a trap in a way. Unless you are very vigilant you could fall into.
WEST: Well, Blease, I had a very simple test. Whenever anything came up, whether it involved money or not, if it was questionable I would say, “Suppose that’s the headline in the State Newspaper tomorrow. Could I live with it?” If the answer was no I would say no.
GRAHAM: In certain ways it isn’t any more complicated than that, is it.
WEST: Yes. If the whole story comes in tomorrow’s paper, could I say “Yes, I did it, I took this responsibility, and I made this decision.” If I can’t meet that test, I say ‘Let’s forget it.” [Back to Topics]
Recalling The 1970 Campaign for Governor
GRAHAM: As you think back on your 1970 campaign for governor, what made it a success? The fifty cent barbeque? Or
WEST: Actually, it was the Black vote and I think the statistics would prove that. It was the Black vote and the Republican vote.
What happened there was … in September, I'm sure I was at Republican encouragement, for the first time there were two Black candidates for governor. The theory being obviously they would take away a substantial percentage of the Black vote. Of course, you had the George Wallace crowd. Red Bethea was running on that.
And then it was amazing – I call them thinking Republicans – who suddenly came to me, came to my support, taking a full-page article in the State. An amazing group of people. Jim Edwards was one of them, incidentally. Really, that plus … Now on the Black vote side, why as soon as that came out I thought we’d lost. Two people. I. deQuincy Newman and Don Fowler came in and said ‘Hell no.’ They started. I. deQuincy and his brother. They hit every Black church and said don’t be fooled. This is a ploy to get your vote. Don’t be stupid. So that took away from the Blacks.
GRAHAM: There really were a lot of newly registered Black voters.
WEST: Oh yes. The statistics are there. Without the Black vote I probably wouldn’t have won.
GRAHAM: Do you … A lot of people refer to that as the last campaign in South Carolina where race talk or race rhetoric was still present. Did you experience that?
WEST: Yes, and I’ve said the same thing. It was the last time that race was an overt part of a campaign. It was Albert [Watson], of course, who sparked the riots. We had problems in Columbia. It was his racial talk that spurred it on. So I think that certainly history will show – and get back to Strom’s comment on election night, “We can’t win cussin’ the – Blacks – any more.”
GRAHAM: That’s what really triggered some of those thinking Republicans, those moderates, to realize that probably this was kind of a fringe candidacy. It’s amazing how close it was, though, even under those circumstances.
Just to back track a year or two. How was the 1968 presidential campaign in South Carolina? Did Vice President Humphrey come to South Carolina in 1968, do you remember? I think I remember one speech out at the National Guard Armory that Senator Hollings made. But I don’t remember the national Democrats doing much of a campaign. I think one of the points I'm trying to think about here is that really didn’t help you. Or maybe it did. But to not have a very good boost from the previous presidential race.
WEST: Humphrey? I can’t remember whether he came down or not.
GRAHAM: Mrs. Humphrey came one time, didn’t she?
WEST: Yeah, I remember one of the ads the Republicans took in the 
1970 campaign was that I supported Hubert Humphrey and went to a testimonial dinner for a Black man. Not Roger Wilkins, but the head of the NAACP. I went to a testimonial dinner in Manning. There were two White people there, or three. Henry Mills, superintendent of education, Cyril Busbee and me.
GRAHAM: It’s hard for a young person to realize just how public and how sharp some of those feelings were at that time.
WEST: The emotional feelings on the segregation issue is hard for even those of us who lived through it to really appreciate too much now. [Back to Topics]
GRAHAM: Not to backtrack too much, but a while ago we mentioned the Gressette Committee. A while ago you made reference to that. What was that, and how did it work?
WEST: Well, the Gressette Committee’s real objective was to maintain segregation and to guide the State through the process of integration. It was looked on as the … Of course, Joe Rogers of Manning was the vice chairman. He ran for governor against McNair in 1966. And that was his qualification, I guess. Marion was … Of course, I got along fine with Marion, and he knew he and I – I didn’t feel as strongly as he did. But he was looking for legal ways to stave off or to postpone integration, and did a great job. But it didn’t last.
GRAHAM: Legal ways? Do you mean things like filing legislation, participating in law suits, or strategies to promote … delaying lawsuits? That kind of thing? [yes] Gressette really was a traditionalist, wasn’t he? He, for example, was not in favor of making Winthrop a co-educational institution, was he?
WEST: When I signed the legislation making it a co-educational institution. I had him there and we gave him a permanent pass to the Winthrop-Carolina football games. A lifetime pass.
GRAHAM: Did he smile?
WEST: Yes, he smiled. Marion and I were great friends. We disagreed on a lot of things but he was one of the warm friends and good mentors I had. I served on the Judiciary Committee with him before switching to the Finance Committee. So we would disagree sometimes very strongly and he would cuss me out occasionally.
GRAHAM: I always heard that his reputation was that he always did his homework, that he lived and breathed legislation and studied it all the time. He was a great debater and orator in his own right.
WEST: He and Edgar and Rembert and a few others of them from around the state did a pretty good job.
GRAHAM: Did Gressette ever think about running state-wide?
WEST: Not that I know of. In fact, when they reapportioned and put him in with Orangeburg, we figured he had had it. But he, like Strom, was able to change with the times. [Back to Topics]
Governor West's Proudest Political Achievement
GRAHAM: As you look back on your Administration as Governor are there some things that stand out to you? Things that you are particularly proud of? Achievements? I know we probably are going to run out of time today.
WEST: I guess if I had to mention one thing it would be the race relationship. Because we still were in a very precarious, tense period. I created the Human Affairs Commission, first by executive order because I knew it wouldn’t pass as legislation. And that set the system of communication. To put on that Commission, Blease, we looked for the agitators, the reasonable Blacks who were activists. We looked for the Whites who were the problem solvers. And it worked. It was an idea whose time had come and so out of that, of course, came the legislative enactment a year or so later.
We had Jim Clyburn and others in there who just did a good job. So I guess if I'm proud of one thing it is that I cooled the tensions a little bit between the races and started an era of …. One of the things that has pleased me, and as you know I have been spending some time in MUSC in Charleston, to see the number of Blacks in responsible positions. Not just orderlies or go-fors. But they are running machines and I say “Where did you get your training?” “Tech school; tech school; tech school.” But the healing, or the building of bridges there, I guess, would be on the things I would be most happy about.
GRAHAM: It really opens up career paths and gets people more mobile.
WEST: Plus the fact that it’s a tremendous economic boost. You get an unemployed person, or somebody making a minimum wage, and suddenly elevate them to a machine operator at twice the minimum wage you have people who can spend money. I’ll put it this way. The fact that we’ve been able to bring Blacks into the main stream economically has been a tremendous asset to South Carolina. And without it we would much further down in terms of our quality of life and economic prosperity. [Back to Topics]
Importance of the Tech School System
GRAHAM: One important aspect of the tech school system was that you could go to school while being at home. You didn’t have to have the money to move to a University town and to pay room and board and that kind of thing.
WEST: Our original concept was that we would have a tech school within commuting distance – no more than thirty miles – of every population center. The original tech schools were free. And we said there would be no football teams or athletic programs. There would be no dormitories. It was supposed to be an institution where you could go any hour of the day or night and get your post-high school training and ultimately college credit. And it has worked.
GRAHAM: Is this a system that is unique in the country? Didn’t we kind of invent the tech school system?
WEST: Yes, we did. I say we did it, and yet we did it by some degree of 
plagiarism. We studies all the other systems and we found that North Carolina probably was the best and we hired their director away, Wade Martin. He came down here and he took the best of the other states that we had studied. And when we finally got the program going the other states, almost all of them, came to look and see. We had to get a commitment from them that they wouldn’t try to hire our people. I remember one incident where the Governor of Oklahoma was a Republican and the Lt. Governor was a Democrat. If the Governor left the Lt. Governor had full authority. Well, the Governor wanted to come to see our tech system. But he was afraid of what the Lt. Governor would do in his absence. I was a friend of the Lt. Governor, so I called him and asked if he would make a commitment that you will not do anything drastic while the Governor is here studying our tech school system.
GRAHAM: Over the years it really has blossomed into to one of the best examples of how a state can uplift itself economically. We certainly see a lot of students coming in to the University who have done their basic work in the tech school systems who have an interest in expanding their specialty or going into management or those kind of things. It has helped a lot of people get a college education.
WEST: Yes, I guess after the GI Bill, it has been the biggest single factor in helping people who otherwise couldn’t afford post-high school or college education. [Back to Topics]
GRAHAM: The Human Affairs Commission was an opener too in a way by giving people a potential remedy or a place to air grievances and get a fair hearing in ways that hadn’t existed before. That really was a path-breaking thing too, wasn’t it.
WEST: Yes, it was – you know, a lot of times, why, people just want to blow off steam. I established in the Governor’s office an Ombudsman Section. I put an attractive young lady in charge. I used to laugh because a fellow would come in with all sorts of problems. Patty would talk to him and give him a smile and he’d go away. He wanted a place to vent. And plus it was good to get a place where an ordinary citizen could come in and make sure that his complaints were listened to.
GRAHAM: It helps as governor to keep in touch with what a lot of people are thinking.
WEST: I see that Governor Sanford has started the same program, except that he’s available in his office, which is fine. But I doubt that he will be able to keep that up. [Back to Topics]
GRAHAM: What inspired creation of the second medical school?
WEST: South Carolina in 1970 had the highest infant mortality rate and the lowest life expectancy of any state in the Union and the lowest percentage of doctors per population in the state. So that was the genesis of the second medical school.
GRAHAM: For example at the new Richland hospital, Dr. Tom Austin, who is a pediatrician, had neo-natal care unit for the children who were born in distress. And really in a couple of years you could almost see the infant death rate decline as part of that. A faculty member in the new medical school with the residency requirements revised. An incredible change in medical practice in this state.
WEST: It broke the old “ Charleston medicine” system. The story I would start
with is that I made a speech to the Columbia Rotary Club about the future of South Carolina and I said the future should also include a serious consideration of a second medical school. Bob McNair called me after the speech and said ‘Your idea of a second medical school is fine but you’ve got to have a first medical school.’ I said, ‘What do you mean?” He said, “Look at this report.” It was a report that in effect said that if there were any alternatives, Charleston wouldn’t have been accredited.” In other words, if there were any alternatives.
GRAHAM: It had deteriorated that much!
WEST: It just didn’t meet the standards. It was deficient in a lot of areas. But anyhow, I can go into that.
GRAHAM: There was the hospital strike right at the end of Governor McNair’s Administration.
WEST: They needed a lot of money, and we got them the money and increased the graduates and so on.
GRAHAM: It was a forward-looking thing to make that kind of commitment and investment in the health care. [Back to Topics]
